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an interview with


Gary Zukav



author of

Dancing Wu Li Masters and The Seat of the Soul

Gary Zukav was interviewed by Marti Glenn at "The Grail," an invitational conference hosted by Jean Houston and produced by East Beach Productions for La Casa de Maria in Santa Barbara, CA.

Gary Zukav's books have inspired thousands of readers Marti Glenn: Gary what are you most passionate about right now.

Gary Zukav: The soul—and I have vision that I can taste. I long for a world that respects nature. I look at freeway construction and I compare that to what I've learned about how my native brothers and sisters. They ask the Earth's permission to break her skin before digging a hole to put rocks in. Maybe freeways are important, maybe they are necessary, but did anyone ask? Did anyone say, "Mother, this is the plan. We have a need. Can you help us? And this is what we want to give to you." Did anyone pray?

Does anyone pray before they cut a tree? I haven't seen anyone do that yet in the timber industry. But my vision is that that day is coming. I have a vision of a world in which we relate to each other as souls—not as personalities—not as bodies and minds and capabilities to accomplish things in this domain of the five sense, but as immortal spirits learning together how to co-create this world. We have been doing this unconsciously for millennia. The great transformation in our species is that, for the first time, we are becoming conscious of it while we are doing it. There is still inertia. There is a carry-over from the old ways of doing to the new ways of being. We have to learn how to bring the sacred into every moment, so that no matter how long our to-do list is or how pressing the agenda, we are souls. We have eternity.

We may have thirty years to reverse or even check the environmental damage that we have done to the ecological system, without which we do not exist as personalities. But how can we heal this system using the same methods that have damaged it so? I'm not speaking about activities. I am speaking about energy. It is one thing to be an environmentalist and to say that I am the champion of the forest or the whales. But if I do that with anger and judgment in my heart, I've accomplished nothing. Nothing. So this new species that we are becoming is aware in ways that the species that we are leaving behind is not aware. We are aware of energy. I'm using that word to mean what we can sense without using the five senses. Can you sense when your friend in pain? Do you need to see her face? No. Not if you are open to your unfolding sensibilities. In the same way, we are becoming aware of our intimate connection with each other continually. Once we become that, nothing is more important than compassion—nothing—and with that, everything is possible. That's the vision that I yearn for.

Marti Glenn: Say more about this in relation to your own personal life.

Gary Zukav: That's how I create the vision. I cannot change you. I cannot change other people. So I have decided to put all of my energy where I have the most leverage , where I know I can make a difference. Instead of being upset that this world is not populated the way I want it to be populated, I have decided to become the citizen that I want the world to be populated with.

Marti Glenn: How do you do that? What are the tools that you use to help yourself?

Gary Zukav: I'm glad you asked that because my whole life is using these tools and sharing them with people who ask about them. The tool is responsible choice, and the process in my case is aligning my personality with my soul. In your case it would be aligning your personality with your soul. The soul is that part of us that is immortal. It existed before the personality was born and it will exist after the personality is gone. The personality is an energy tool of the soul that is temporary. Through it we learn in this domain of the five senses. We learn through what we create and the impact that it has on us. This process is becoming conscious.

Your soul is that part of you that longs for harmony and cooperation and sharing and reverence for life. When you make decisions that align you with those values, you align your personality with your soul. It's that simple to understand. Now to do it, in my experience, is hard.

Marti Glenn: How do you help people to do it?

Gary Zukav: I work on doing it myself. When I'm on the freeway and someone cuts me off and I'm in a hurry and I feel a flash of anger, I ask myself, "Now what do I do? Am I going to respond in anger? What have I accomplished in the past by responding in anger?” A lot—and it has all been so painful. I grew up an opportunist. I went to Harvard. I was a Green Beret officer. I created so many painful things in my life—not that going to Harvard was painful but the orientation that I had toward others had no compassion in it. Now I am conscious of how I choose to respond to the circumstances life gives me. When I do that I create. And you do too.

If I indulge my anger, I respond in anger and I create more angry circumstances for me in the future. In the East this is called karma. In the West it's called the Golden Rule. We are in the greatest evolutionary transformation in the history of our species. We are expanding beyond the five senses. We are becoming aware of ourselves as immortal souls, as powerful creators and co-creators. We are becoming aware that we experience what we create, and there is no escape from that. That is not because the universe is vengeful or punitive. The universe is beneficent and kind and compassionate and wise in every way in every circumstance at every moment. It is our learning environment that we are maneuvering through, and I intend to learn as much as I can. I intend to do whatever I can to heal the parts of me that judge, that criticize, that are angry, that do anything but contribute the maximum I can in this precious time that I have in the earth school. That's my joy.

My vision is a world that operates on the same principles, and this doesn't mean that I proselytize. It's my dream. It's my vision. My entire life is dedicated to this great transformation that is happening in as it is happening in you.

Marti Glenn: You have children. What are your concerns for their future?

Gary Zukav: Each soul has it's own path. Children are young personalities but they are not always young souls. Incarnation into the domain of the five senses is a dramatic act of spiritual responsibility. Neonates are great souls and so I honor their paths. I do the best that I can, but the best that I can do is to change myself. To make myself a citizen like I want others to be. I don't say, "I can do nothing because the world is so selfish." I can, I can become less selfish. I don't say, "What can I do? This world is so brutal." I can do something. I can make myself less brutal. And I have accomplished a great deal in that area.

Marti Glenn: What brought you to this place? Was there a mentor, a trial, a wounding? What happened for you?

Gary Zukav: There was no single event. My life has been as complex as yours. The first thing I did of note was writing The Dancing Wu Li Masters. I decided to write a book on physics without having written a book before or studied physics. I did because my heart and my imagination were caught and I decided to leave a gift behind of what I had learned in this process.

I asked physicists to help me to make sure that I got it right, and I was so excited writing this book. I was fulfilled. I was thrilled. I was stretched, expanded, stimulated. When I wasn't writing it I was worried about the rent. I was trying to extract everything I could from the world. I was angry. I was a victim. But when I wrote the book I was in a different place and that was my first taste of authentic power, real power.

And I noticed that this book was more intelligent than I am, funnier than I am and had more of an overall comprehension than I did. I would write one chapter starting with an outline, which then I threw away as the energy took the chapter where it wanted to go and the chapter miraculously came to an end. Then six months later I would write another chapter with five chapters in between. And the same process would happen and chapter six and chapter one would fit together as though I had planned it. So who planned it?

I knew in my miserable life then that something much greater than I, more fun and thrilling and fulfilling, was at work with me. So I decided to join that. I decided to marry it. I said, "I want to work with you. I don't know what you are but I want to work with you. I want my life to be like this book. I want to live my life the way this book is being written, always in the moment, always what is appropriate, knowing when to start and when to stop." That was my first experience of non-physical intelligence. You have the same ability. You have teachers. You have guides. Every soul does.

As we become multi-sensory, which means expanded beyond the five senses, we become more aware of this guidance. Not direction, not dictation, but guidance. Co-creating with friends, we do this in the five-sensory world. As we become multi-sensory we extend our circle. That's all.

Marti Glenn: Explain multi-sensory for somebody who doesn't know.

Gary Zukav: The five senses together form a single sensory system and the object of that sensory system is physical reality. Ever since our origin until recently we have evolved through the exploration of physical reality, exploring what we can detect with the five sense. Now we are becoming a species that is no longer limited to the five senses, and that is what I'm calling multi-sensory. More senses, more sensory faculties than the five senses.

That means we're becoming highly intuitive. What we feel inside is important to us now. It's no longer an artifact of random neuronal firings in the cerebral cortex. As we become multi-sensory, what happens inside is more important than what happens outside.

To be specific, what happens behind your eyes is more important than what happens in front of them. This is a reversal from the way that we have been taught and the way that we had experienced the world as five sensory humans.

Marti Glenn: Do you teach intuition?

Gary Zukav: Yes. It's a developing faculty and we will create ways to teach and strengthen and develop intuition in the way that we now have techniques for developing cognition.

Marti Glenn: How would you teach somebody to get more in tune with their intuition?

Gary Zukav: First you must become aware of what you are feeling. Most people are not. Most people are aware of what they are thinking and aware of what they are feeling only when they are in pain, and even then they are not sure of where it is in their body. To develop intuition, one of the things you can do is pay attention to what you eat. Eat as clean a diet as you can. Eat fresh fruits and vegetables without preservatives, without alcohol, caffeine, dyes, and organically grown if possible. But do what is comfortable for your. Don't try to shift into a lifestyle that doesn't fit, but be aware that the lighter you eat the lighter you will feel.

Be aware of emotional toxins as well as physical toxins. Be aware of what you are thinking. If you are angry and judgmental it doesn't matter how much tofu and broccoli you are eating. You might as well be eating roast beef. Clear yourself at the end of every day. Try not to go to bed angry or distressed or anxious or jealous or envious.

Marti Glenn: How do you do that?

Gary Zukav: Work with yourself. Work. If you have a partner, so much the better. Speak. Use whatever process is appropriate. Know that this universe is compassionate, aware and alive. This is a universe of life. This is not a material enterprise. It is a spiritual enterprise and it is filled with loving assistance. This is a thought form that must be in place in order for you to receive assistance.

And last, when you ask for help listen. It's one thing to ask the question and it's another thing to listen to the answer. Many people ask questions but they do not like what they hear and so they pretend that they heard nothing at all.

Whenever you ask for guidance, guidance immediately pours in. It may not come in the way that you expect it. You may not hear a voice or have a vision. It may come after you take a walk and calm yourself. It may come while you're driving the next day. It may come in the form of a friend who introduces you to a friend who then has the answer you've been looking for, or it may come in a dream. But it will come.

Here's a simple way you can engage your intuition. When you are about to say something and you're not sure if you want to say it, ask yourself, "What is my motivation?" When you check your motivation you engage non-physical guidance and you will not be alone in you assessment.

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Interview with Gary Zukav © Concensus Designs, Inc. For permission to reprint portions of this interview, please contact East Beach® Productions.

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